Bush lovers read this...

[totalburnout]

Well, what about having a strict muslim hearing that it is legal to have premarital sex, walk around in a bikini, work. That is completely agaisnt their way of life. I am sure that you really don't care about that, and for sure you would never agree if the goverment started making laws that "protect" the muslim community's way of life. To a person who thinks that marrage is a religous bond, good for them. For chirstans that do not celebrate christmas in the normal "santa, lights, and tree" because its a slap in their face to look at things that way, well good for them. Does it affect me if I am that strict christan and my naighbor next door has a huge blowup manora for his holiday decorations. No.

Again, your playing devils advacate for everything. You even said you don't agree with it then you just go ahead and argue for it.

[post=430451]Quoted post[/post]​

Read what I wrote.

I said I agree with homosexual couples 'uniting' not marrying, being given the same rights as a married couple when viewed by the government.

I also said that people can't be 100% equal, thus they can't be treated as if they are, because if they were...people would have to 'fake' feelings and the 'way' they 'treat' someone who actually isn't their equal. We're all people and we all deserve to be treated 'fairly' but some people's definition of fairly is unrealistic political correct bullshit.

Take a good long look at what I said in the reply that you're quoting. Its one thing to 'play devil's advocate' its another thing to be able to see both sides of the issue, state them, and agree with one moreso than another. ...you guys were all bitching at me for being so far right, when in fact I'm in the middle, and most of you guys here are so far left. From my views, you can tell that I see both sides, despite what many here claim I do, and like to take the happy medium.

I have nothing against homosexuals, I have nothing against religion. I just don't think that one should be FORCED to encounter the other.

...I believe you on the hand have something against religion and thats where you're arguement is derived from.

 

[reckedracing]

You better back the fuck up there with that shit junior. Aside from the Abu "scandal" care to site some instances where the US Army specifically treated Iraqi Civilians or POWs outside the Genevia Convention?

what the fuck do you mean ASIDE from???

and how about Guantánamo Bay???

 

[reckedracing]

no terrorist group can do any REAL harm to the US

hmmm, once again i site the economic impact alone...
or did you miss that? seems to be your habit, anything you can't argue you just ignore...
works well... der der der

And recked, you're in the here and now and could obviously really give a flying hoot about whats happened in the past fews years and history in general, as a preresequite. Intelligent...

and what the hell is this suspossed to mean?
seems to me in the past few years we got attacked by bin laden, NOT SADDAM...

once again my point is the US gov't is corrupt as fuck, and we should have altered our foreign policy instead of playing world bully...
and the iraq war still has no justification besides saddam was a bad guy and junior is handling daddy's unfinished business... both of which hardly justify the economic cost of this war as well as the cost of lives of US soldiers...

 

[xj0hnx]

Originally posted by reckedracing@Dec 13 2004, 04:55 PM

You better back the fuck up there with that shit junior. Aside from the Abu "scandal" care to site some instances where the US Army specifically treated Iraqi Civilians or POWs outside the Genevia Convention?

what the fuck do you mean ASIDE from???

and how about Guantánamo Bay???

[post=431242]Quoted post[/post]​

HAHAHAHAHAHA, dude, you do realize that there is a difference in the services, and a huge difference in things that happen at a NAVAL base/prison in Cuba, and the goings on in Iraq of the US Army..don't you? If not than you really have no business speaking on the subject.

 

[Sabz5150]

Originally posted by 92b16vx+Dec 13 2004, 11:13 AM-->

reckedracing

@Dec 13 2004, 04:55 PM

You better back the fuck up there with that shit junior. Aside from the Abu "scandal" care to site some instances where the US Army specifically treated Iraqi Civilians or POWs outside the Genevia Convention?

what the fuck do you mean ASIDE from???

and how about Guantánamo Bay???

[post=431242]Quoted post[/post]​

HAHAHAHAHAHA, dude, you do realize that there is a difference in the services, and a huge difference in things that happen at a NAVAL base/prison in Cuba, and the goings on in Iraq of the US Army..don't you? If not than you really have no business speaking on the subject.

[post=431255]Quoted post[/post]​

I think he's also pointing out that Abu Ghraib should not have happened in the first place. Call it a few bad apples, but ya know what they say about 'dem apples...

It doesn't matter if they do not abide by Geneva, that does not give us the right to ignore those rules either. We're supposed to be the more civil country, the one with "moral values". Unfortunately that lil fiasco did more to damage our reputation than anything will do to fix it.

I have a lot of respect for the armed forces, but goddamn... those guys fucked up. Remember, do a great job and nobody pays any attention to you. Fuck up once and everybody knows your name.

 

[reckedracing]

HAHAHAHAHAHA, dude, you do realize that there is a difference in the services, and a huge difference in things that happen at a NAVAL base/prison in Cuba, and the goings on in Iraq of the US Army..don't you? If not than you really have no business speaking on the subject.

yes, i realize there is a diffrence, but you mr military wanted another instance...

so if that doesn;t work for you then how about
POW camp at Umm Qasr
or Camp Cropper

 

[totalburnout]

hmmm, once again i site the economic impact alone...
or did you miss that? seems to be your habit, anything you can't argue you just ignore...
works well... der der der

Read my other posts, I stated that no one would have figured that such a small organization could have done such economic or even physical damage to the United States.


I 'cite' that these effects are not of any real significance because they are not long lasting and only haulted the market for a short while. The prices of crude oil are down from what they were. The stock market is up AFTER Bush was reelected. Unemployment is starting to stagnate and no longer raise like it was.


As I stated atleast TWICE already, neither of them could do any SEVERE damage. See if this sounds familiar. 3,000 people is a drop in the bucket, thats not even a quarter percent of the US population, therefore losses were VERY VERY small.

I didn't ignore anything, I just restated what I said for atleast the third time. Get through your thick skull that 9/11 was the LARGEST TERRORIST ATTACK in US history, but thats not saying much. It may have been the largest terrorist attack but losses were still minimal and its effects weren't long term. Sure it sent some people into a frenzy about the economy, but that was their own stupidity. ...for people to think that we're all at risk because the mass media puts up red, yellow, orange, blue, magenta alerts about terrorism is jusut asinine.

My point remains that neither Sadaam nor Bin Laden could ever do any SIGNIFICANT damage to the United States even when they were at their greatest height. The United States is just far too large and economically developed to been MAJORLY effected by a small advent.

p.s. If anything was ignored its because your claims were so outlandish and ridiculouse that to even dignify you with rebutting them was pointless. You're obviously not educated on this topic at all. Go smoke another fatty y0.

 

[Battle Pope]

God dammit I thought this was over...

 

[b204dr]

Originally posted by Battle Pope@Dec 14 2004, 12:21 PM
God dammit I thought this was over...

[post=431910]Quoted post[/post]​

u started it - u finish it - hehe j/p

 

[Battle Pope]

Actually, reckedracing started it.

 

[reckedracing]

were still minimal and its effects weren't long term.

define minimal and long term for me...

the stock market tanking and staying in a recession for three years would be considered long term...

and minimal?
would you consider pearl harbor to be minimal?
that was only 2200 deaths, but it propelled america into WW2

its not about the actual lives, but the impact from this terrorist act that dictates how history will be recorded...

 

[dohcvtec_accord]

 

[totalburnout]

Originally posted by reckedracing@Dec 14 2004, 11:54 AM

were still minimal and its effects weren't long term.

define minimal and long term for me...

the stock market tanking and staying in a recession for three years would be considered long term...

and minimal?
would you consider pearl harbor to be minimal?
that was only 2200 deaths, but it propelled america into WW2

its not about the actual lives, but the impact from this terrorist act that dictates how history will be recorded...

[post=431929]Quoted post[/post]​

I'm done holding your hand.

People will argue that we were going to enter WWII anyway and thats we actually knew the planes were coming, because we broke the Japanese code well before they made it here, but we let the attack happen just to bring us into the war. Pearl Habor was just an excuse to get into the War, eventually we were going to break into it one way or another. ...so although people claim that Pearl Habor 'propelled' the US into WWII in actuallity the United States was itching to get into the war, but had told its people that we would not be entering, all we needed was a reason to go.

You don't need to explain to me what its about, and answer your own question. Has your life changed due to terrorism? I mean significantly changed? 9/11 will be remembered forever in history because we will never let it be forgotten as an honor to our citizens BUT theres no long term effects here. Since Vietnam we've been fighting guerilla style warfare just as we are against the terrorist, only difference is we have more high tech toys to play with now.

The stock market didn't tank except for shortly after the attacks, other than that we were just in a recession and it wasn't flourishing like it had 5 years prior....Its not 'tanking' 3 years later, and even so 3 years is not long term although it may be in your mind. In actuality the stock market dipped for a very short while and then came back up to a respectable place. The stock market can't always be flourishing as much as people wish it could.

 

[xj0hnx]

Originally posted by Blanco@Dec 13 2004, 09:41 PM
Just to help 92b16vx out a little. He was pointing out that recked singled out the Army instead of saying "Armed Forces". Not denying that these instances happened.

And yes, it's like being an offensive lineman. Nobody knows who you are until you let the quarterback get sacked. Same principle, because a black eye is a black eye no matter how you look at it. And there are a growing number of abuse reports coming from the Armed Forces stationed around the world.

[post=431421]Quoted post[/post]​

Thanks, that's exactly what I meant. Bad things happen in war, but make no mistake, very bad things happened here before we came here. This wasn't some wonderland or religious mecca, filled with peaceful people, the level of poverty, illiteracy, violence here makes me laugh out loud when I hear someone in the states talk about having it rough.

I am not denying that sometimes things in this place get out of hand, but the thing that you don't have to do that we do, is put it in realitive perspective. It's easy to say this could have been done better, or more justly. But as said before, no one sees the good, but you fuck up once and it's national news. People like feeding off the bad, kind of like when you pass a wreck, you have to see if you can spot the body, but who cares about someone parked on the side of the road having a picnic.

 

[totalburnout]

Originally posted by 92b16vx+Dec 15 2004, 05:44 AM-->

Blanco

@Dec 13 2004, 09:41 PM
Just to help 92b16vx out a little. He was pointing out that recked singled out the Army instead of saying "Armed Forces". Not denying that these instances happened.

And yes, it's like being an offensive lineman. Nobody knows who you are until you let the quarterback get sacked. Same principle, because a black eye is a black eye no matter how you look at it. And there are a growing number of abuse reports coming from the Armed Forces stationed around the world.

[post=431421]Quoted post[/post]​

Thanks, that's exactly what I meant. Bad things happen in war, but make no mistake, very bad things happened here before we came here. This wasn't some wonderland or religious mecca, filled with peaceful people, the level of poverty, illiteracy, violence here makes me laugh out loud when I hear someone in the states talk about having it rough.

I am not denying that sometimes things in this place get out of hand, but the thing that you don't have to do that we do, is put it in realitive perspective. It's easy to say this could have been done better, or more justly. But as said before, no one sees the good, but you fuck up once and it's national news. People like feeding off the bad, kind of like when you pass a wreck, you have to see if you can spot the body, but who cares about someone parked on the side of the road having a picnic.

[post=432436]Quoted post[/post]​

Nicely put.

In terms of my sentiments on the 'war crimes' you hit the nail right on the head. For what has previously happened to these peoples, its a stroll in the park. The United States is about the only country along with England that follows the Genevia Convention pretty strictly. Have you ever seen someone in a leadership role in the United States be charged with war crimes? No, it just doesn't happen. I shutter to think about what happens to our POW. The Japanese in World War II put glass rods up our POW's penis and then smashed them with a hammer. In relative terms, being stripped, pissed on, and roughed up is nothing. Although its not right, people aren't perfect and you cannot hold everyone's hand to assure something like this would NEVER happen, but we try our best.

 

[dveit]

Originally posted by New2TheCarScene@Dec 15 2004, 12:44 PM
The Japanese in World War II put glass rods up our POW's penis and then smashed them with a hammer.

Thanks for that pleasant mental image <_<

 

[xj0hnx]

Originally posted by Blanco@Dec 15 2004, 10:18 PM
Two things come to mind, A) hypocricy and B) leading by example. We can't very well comdemn other people for doing the same things that we're doing ourselves, now can we? Multitude of abuse in a moot point. The fact that it happens, in whatever comparitively small numbers, is the point. We've basically said that it's perfectly alright to treat POWs in any manner through our own actions and that will come back to haunt us. The fact that other countries already do it is another moot point, since we're supposed to be setting an example for the rest of the world. And you better believe that Americans aren't the only ones to jump on yet another black eye by the U.S. military.

[post=432714]Quoted post[/post]​

Well, it's not a perfect world, but people want to bitch and moan and cry about things like this as though it were. Fact is, most people probably have much worse things going on in their local prison system than there is in our detention facilities, but since Bush and Iraq are the hot topics that the armchair politians are all about that's the biggest problem in the world. America the bully, the abuser, whatever, we abuse our own much worse than we do Iraq. Entire neighborhoods left to rot, starving children, drug abuse, and on, and on, and on. But you know what? It is still a 110% better place to live than a LOT of the world. Be thankful you can critisize it, I know four electrictians here that had there index fingers cut off by Saddam for not fighting against Iran. Try typing all your complaints about the governments "abuse" with four fingers.

It sucks that we grow up and have all the illusions spoiled, but hey, that's life, fix it or don't.

 

[xj0hnx]

Originally posted by Blanco@Dec 16 2004, 12:58 AM
  I love how you always resort back to the "arm chair politician" insult everytime anyone has anything to say against the government.  You really are starting to sound like a broken record. 

[post=432799]Quoted post[/post]​

Fight fire with fire, though it's not really an insult, just a way of seperating those that talk from those that act. If it's insulting that they choose not to make thier world better, but instead talk, than it isn't me that's making it insulting.

Also the VERY few that do partake in these violations are not the leaders of the US, they are not the man, system, machine, they are dregs. We have them, everywhere has them. They are at Harvard, in NASA, the Armed Services, Wall Street, high schools, everywhere. There is always someone that will ruin a perfectly good thing. And it's a probem, but the fact that others leech onto it, and focus on the bad instead of the positive, makes it guess what? Worse.

 

[totalburnout]

Two things come to mind, A) hypocricy and B) leading by example. We can't very well comdemn other people for doing the same things that we're doing ourselves, now can we? Multitude of abuse in a moot point. The fact that it happens, in whatever comparitively small numbers, is the point. We've basically said that it's perfectly alright to treat POWs in any manner through our own actions and that will come back to haunt us. The fact that other countries already do it is another moot point, since we're supposed to be setting an example for the rest of the world. And you better believe that Americans aren't the only ones to jump on yet another black eye by the U.S. military.

[post=432714]Quoted post[/post]​

Here is where you're living in a dream world once again Blanco.

I didn't say it was right, I said it happens and it will always happen. I'm saying to blow it out of proportion, for the relatively small things that happened is absurd. People are treated that poorly on a regular basis in their country and people here won't bat an eyelash, but when the United States does it.... all hell breaks loose.

The situation those soldiers were put in, I can see how it happened, and if you can't then you can't see both sides of the story. Everyone hyped them up, they killed our family, our friends, our citizens in the soldiers eyes, they're the reason why the soldiers have to trudge through hell in a foreign country, they're the center of all evil and exactly what the United States stands to oppose, in the soldier's eyes.

 

[totalburnout]

Originally posted by dveit+Dec 15 2004, 12:50 PM-->

New2TheCarScene

@Dec 15 2004, 12:44 PM
The Japanese in World War II put glass rods up our POW's penis and then smashed them with a hammer.

Thanks for that pleasant mental image <_<

[post=432576]Quoted post[/post]​

Yeah, I could only imagine what the men it happened to were thinking...


I cringed when I first learned of that kind of torture.