B18B1 All Motor.

[E_SolSi]

Originally posted by StyleTEG@Apr 8 2004, 12:08 PM
Hehe, I love seeing my dyno vs the ITR. Thanks for posting it up colin

I am working on a new ECU for the redline, and fixing my ignition timming issues (which is causing the weird dips in torque).

You guys may know about this more than anyone. My idea is to run a OBD-II GSR Ecu, (P72). And use the GS-R Redline. I know I will throw several codes (vtec related, knock sensor, etc), but as long as those don't put me into limp mode I don't mind the CEL. Any clues as if this is something that woudl work or not?

As far as gas milage, I still get awesome highway gas milage. Even with the 4,400rpm at 80mph. Case in point, I drove 2.5 hours to gingerman race way, did two 20min sessions, and drove another 2.5hours back on one tank of gas. And the gas light is not on yet.

Go with the 404s. Switching to urethane motor mounts made a bigger difference at idle than these cams.

i would just get an LS ECU chipped for better fuel curves and higher rev limit


bill was going to get one from allmotormonster on here before he sold his civic
im sure there are other people that can do it too

 

[StyleTEG]

A chip isn't going to give you better fuel curves, its going to give you A Programers best guess curve.

Custom tuning via something like e-manage/hondata/afc/ems/etc/etc is really the only thing that is going to give you good gains.

However, on the subject of a chipped LS ECU, I have considered. But since my car is an OBD II, I would need to get an OBD I ecu, have someone raise the rev limiter, get a harness, then have my car retuned. Not to mention my e-manage will be plugged into the stock OBD II harness, which is then converted to OBD I.

It would be much easier and cost effective if this $100 GSR ecu works.

 

[phunky.buddha]

Originally posted by StyleTEG@Apr 9 2004, 03:39 PM
A chip isn't going to give you better fuel curves, its going to give you A Programers best guess curve.

You'd be surprised at how good allmotormonster's best guess curves are. He takes all the information about your engine build into account, then programs a custom chip from there. It's no replacement for tuning on a dyno with a custom fuel curve, but he's damn good- trust me.

 

[StyleTEG]

Originally posted by Calesta+Apr 9 2004, 07:49 PM-->

StyleTEG

@Apr 9 2004, 03:39 PM
A chip isn't going to give you better fuel curves, its going to give you A Programers best guess curve.

You'd be surprised at how good allmotormonster's best guess curves are. He takes all the information about your engine build into account, then programs a custom chip from there. It's no replacement for tuning on a dyno with a custom fuel curve, but he's damn good- trust me.

Unless its less than $50, its not worth it imo.

Every engine performs differently. Two B18C1's with the same I/H/C/E, built one day apart, are going to require different A/F and ignition timming to get the most power across the band.

I can get my car tuned on a dyno for $120, why should I pay for shipping and the hassle of a best guess?

 

[E_SolSi]

ok so you go the "cheap" rout and run it off a GSR ECU hoping that the codes it WILL be throwing wont fuck up the performance
then your CEL will be on at all times giving you no clue if something else is fucking up giving you a different CEL

or you could spend a few bucks and get an LS ECU modified to allow you to rev out to where those cams really make their power without driving around with CELs on at all times

there is nothing saying you cant still tune the AF to your specific needs with an SAFC or some other control unit

spending a few extra dollars to do it right is far better than hacking something together in hopes that it will work (IMO)

but hey the choice is yours

 

[StyleTEG]

You fail to realize the situation.

I already have an e-manage, the e-manage was used to tune my current map. Paying someone to give me the "Supa Cool I guess yo FUEL" map is flushing my money down the toilet.

What is smarter, spending $100 for an ecu, $80 for a harness, and another $100 to chip it. Then either have to pay to have the e-manage rewired to the OBD1 conversion harness, or have it plug into the stock harness, which is being converted back to OBD I? Thats not exactly neat and clean either.

Or run an ecu I can pick up from a friend, that hypothetically could work problem free (and I already throw a code all the time, secondary o2). For amost a third of the cost?

Don't try and lecture me on doing things the right way, and then tell me the right way is to get a best guess map BS. And then tune it with something that can't even alter ignition timming (AFC).

 

[E_SolSi]

its not about the fuel maps
the GSR ECU wont be the "correct" maps for your engine either
fuel maps dont mean shit though you tune those to our specific engine anyway

i was suggesting a modified ECU to allow you to rev to where those cams make power (without throwing codes for shit you dont even have)

and and i only suggested the SAFC as an example... theres tons of shit you can use to tune it with

but like i said before the choice is yours

 

[StyleTEG]

No of cource it won't be the right maps, but I am still paying $200 more for the same result.

I don't need any damn advice on the project, beleive me I have looked at every aspect and detail beyond. I researched and installed the whole project myself. I milled the head just enough where valve clearance isn't an issue, and where dynamic compression remains slightly more than stock. That way cranking pressure is not lowered.

I am in the process of creating custom diameter/length runners and ITBs based on where I want peak volumetric effeciency, and where I want resonate amplification to happen, do you really think I don't know about chipping an ODBI ECU?

I just wanted to know if anyone had any idea of which codes throw the ECU into limp mode, and which don't. I have no use for someone trying to lecture me on how you can chip an ecu... no shit, thats not the point.

 

[E_SolSi]

CYP - cylinder position
TDC - tdc sensor
CKP - crank position
VTS - vtec solenoid
KS - knock sensor*

any of those will put you in limp mode

some ECUs (P61, P28, possibly others) will not put you in limp mode for a VTS code

*the Knock Sensor CEL will not put you in "limp mode", but it will retard the hell out of the timing and dump assloads of fuel in to counteract the "pre-detination" it thinks is happening... this will make the car run like ass... but unlike "limp mode" you will still be able to rev above 3500

 

[xj0hnx]

Originally posted by StyleTEG@Apr 11 2004, 01:02 AM

Every engine performs differently. Two B18C1's with the same I/H/C/E, built one day apart, are going to require different A/F and ignition timming to get the most power across the band.

Yea, maybe by 1 hp, or more realistically .001 hp. The difference in that scenerio is soooo small that it is totally negligible.

 

[StyleTEG]

Yea, maybe by 1 hp, or more realistically .001 hp. The difference in that scenerio is soooo small that it is totally negligible.

Not true. They are going to perform very differently, all across the board, and require different tuning because of it. You can't just guess at what makes the same HP, all engines are beyond different.

CYP - cylinder position
TDC - tdc sensor
CKP - crank position
VTS - vtec solenoid
KS - knock sensor*

any of those will put you in limp mode

some ECUs (P61, P28, possibly others) will not put you in limp mode for a VTS code

I know people running with out a KS, and a CYP, and have no problem with limp mode or retardation. The KS is only going to retard the ignition if it thinks there is knock.

I can easily try turning the vtec engagement point beyond my redline, so the ECU thinks I am running low cam all the time.

 

[xj0hnx]

Originally posted by StyleTEG@Apr 12 2004, 12:17 AM

Yea, maybe by 1 hp, or more realistically .001 hp. The difference in that scenerio is soooo small that it is totally negligible.

Not true. They are going to perform very differently, all across the board, and require different tuning because of it. You can't just guess at what makes the same HP, all engines are beyond different.

No, they are not, if they are going to perform that differntly then there would be no way to make products like cams, intake, header, piston, spark plugs etc.. because if they were so different there wouldn't be a consistant basis to make parts from. I'll give you a couple horsepower one way or the other, but to say they will be completely different is ignorant and just trying to split hairs to prove a point.

 

[StyleTEG]

Originally posted by 92b16vx@Apr 11 2004, 06:41 PM
No, they are not, if they are going to perform that differntly then there would be no way to make products like cams, intake, header, piston, spark plugs etc.. because if they were so different there wouldn't be a consistant basis to make parts from. I'll give you a couple horsepower one way or the other, but to say they will be completely different is ignorant and just trying to split hairs to prove a point.

My god, I can't believe you are trying to argue this.

How many miles on the car, how the engine has been treated, how it was broken in, temperatures when the engine was created, etc, etc, all effect how it performs.

Why do you think that not all dyno graphs with simmilar or the same mods are even near the same?

Why bother dyno tuning if someone can just look up "B18C1 with AEM Intake, DC header, and 2.25" exhaust" and burn a chip for it?

You can make products for engines that perform so differently, because the prinicpals are the same.

Cams? More duration and more lift allow more air to enter into the engine, and allow more scavanging. This is univeral to make power. Pistons? Higher compression increases the cranking pressure. Intake? By changing the diameter of the intake and the length you can allow more air to enter the engine, and tune the resonate waves to overfill the cylinders (think of volumetric effeciency, and peak torque).

Why do you think some engines are strong and some are not? You can easily see 10whp from motor to motor, even stock.

 

[highperboi]

Originally posted by StyleTEG@Apr 11 2004, 06:17 PM

I know people running with out a KS, and a CYP, and have no problem with limp mode or retardation. The KS is only going to retard the ignition if it thinks there is knock.

I can easily try turning the vtec engagement point beyond my redline, so the ECU thinks I am running low cam all the time.

if the knock sensor is not there or broken it wont hear anything and it will retard it to be like a safety.

even if you do make the vtec switch over higher then your rev limit it will still be looking for fo the vtec solenoid.

 

[StyleTEG]

I am not worried about the KS.

It can either be grounded out, or a 1kOhm resistor will fool the ECU into thinking it is functioning. Hell it goes into open loop after 5,000 rpm anyways.

I have herd of people running with out a vtec seliniod and not hitting limp mode.

I am tired of arguing about it. I will try it in tommarow and find out for sure. Worse case I put my old one back

 

[xj0hnx]

Two B18C1's with the same I/H/C/E, built one day apart, are going to require different A/F and ignition timming to get the most power across the band.

Obviously the simple concept has slipped from your grasp, I'm not saying Joe Schmo gets a motor one day, and five years later Tom, Dick, and Harry each get one, then they all treat them different, and then ten years later try to dyno them all.

But according to your statement, quoted above, that if I took a motor made on day, and then a motor made the next added I/H/C/E to them they would SOMEHOW, be so moununetally different that they would require completely different programs is just ridiculous, So, I guess Honda has a guy testing each motor and writing ECU chips for each one as they come off the line.

 

[StyleTEG]

Obviously you haven't looked into it, both engines would have different power output at every RPM, and for peak performance it would require different fuel/ignition programming. Not to mention all engines respond to modifications differently. An intake on one engine is not going to perform point to point on another.

Not to mention you can't just throw a brand new motor on the dyno and tune it before its broken in. :roll:

Honda designs there fuel/ignition curves to be safe and for emissions. Why do you think they run richer than necessary at high rpms? Why do you think you can get gains by tuning a stock motor. (My friend gained 10whp simply by tuning his ITR that only had an intake). I gained 5whp simply by turning down the fuel pressure (again, too rich).

and then a motor made the next added I/H/C/E to them they would SOMEHOW, be so moununetally different that they would require completely different programs is just ridiculous

Is that a guess? Or are you sure? Where are you getting your info? Because it sounds like a guess.

It would require a completely different program. Have you ever tuned before? Slight changes in A/F can make huge differences. You make slight changes all along the RPM band and guess what you have a completely different program.

And what the hell is trying to argue a hypothetical situation that everyone decides to dyno their motor the second it comes out of the factory?

The discussion was about a best guess chip vs custom tuning. Real world situation. Sounds like you just changed your tune

 

[xj0hnx]

Originally posted by StyleTEG@Apr 12 2004, 05:49 AM
The discussion was about a best guess chip vs custom tuning. Real world situation. Sounds like you just changed your tune

Nope, I didn't change my "tune" at all. I stick to the fact that the differences are going to be small. Of course it's ideal to tune each motor, but they are not going to be so different that, provided they are modded the same, what works for one will not work just as good in another. There's other factors to, if I tune a motor on a dyno in the mountains in Colorado, then drive it to South Texas, it will be different. But that didn't have anything to do with the motor. You are just trying to split hairs for the sake of arguing

 

[StyleTEG]

No I am not, not in the least.

I have always been arguing a custom dyno tuning vs a best guess chip. Which is real world situation on cars with milage, different break ins, not to mention even brand new they are not going to perform the same.

Of course it's ideal to tune each motor, but the they are not going to be so different that provided they are modded the same, that what works for one will not work just as good in another.

I have talked with people who have done custom chips, and done custom tunning. They have all said that its rare to see a 5% increase, in lots of cases the chips simply ran equal or worse than stock.

Fact of the mater is that every engine breathes and performs differently. Every engine responds to modifications differently. You can not accurately guess how much more to increase or decrease the fuel simply by reading an engine code and a mod list.

..on most naturally aspirated engines operating on pump fuel, the only way to achieve tangible power gains is by increasing airflow through the engine. Chips cannot do this. Therefore they cannot make much difference in power output. Chip reprogrammers can richen the mixture slightly at full throttle and advance the ignition timing slightly perhaps but this would be at the expense of lowering the factory safety factors for detonation and emissions. The absolute maximum gain in this instance would be on the order of 5% and could be as little as 0%. Most independent tests that I have seen on performance chips for naturally aspirated engines have indeed shown minimal or no gains in acceleration.

Some were slower than the factory chip.

There are reasons why people don't just have a list of what cam timming, ignition timming, and fuel settings they use for X set of mods.

 

[StyleTEG]

Originally posted by Tuan
guess speedz is your buddy but anyone that does mail order chips can do the best guess chip but you are relying on their experience of doing live tuning with Integras with similar packages. Each engine has it's own unique "personality". Relying on experience and ensuring a safe non-detonation program will mean the program will likely be too rich.

Remember as I have told the TI members here many times, the guy that does my chip was trained by Techtom Japan in Japan, has rally raced professionally, and has tuned import Japanese motors for over 10 years: he doesn't get the best program on the first best guess despite his vast experience...and trust me, I can say safely he knows more than speedz does when it comes to EPROM/EEPROM reprograms for Integras...and he needs 2-3 adjustment dyno runs to zero in on the fuel values.

If you can't do it live and have to rely on a best guess chip, then the order you do it in depends on the latest info you send to the programmer. He makes the adjustments based on that. If the EPROM is re-writable then arrange a deal with him to send the chip back a couple of more times to zero in on the best fuel tables.
Obviously it would be more costly if the EPROM is a one time burn situation.

The ignition tables are usually adjusted based on road testing the car and seeing how it responds or it's driveability. So I don't know how he adjusts your ignition tables on the EPROM.