Anti- Bush

[penguinzx]

Seeing as I'm pretty much a newbie here, I hate to jump in on something that is obviously controversial. I just have to disagree with this idea that the rich shouldn't have to pay a higher tax rate. A percentage rate is only equitable when everyone is earning what could be considered a similar wage. However, at a point real dollar figures do become important. As someone mentioned it is considerably easier for someone making $300,000 to pay 25% of their earning than it is for someone making $30,000. The issue of percentage disposable income arises here. Basically all people require a certain amount of money to meet their living necessities. For someone making $30K, there is a very small portion of their income left over after paying for these basic necessities. Whereas a person making $300K has a much larger percentage of their wage comprising their disposable income. I don't imagine this comes as a revelation to anybody here.

To say that making the rich pay a higher percentage tax rate is something of a punishment for being successful is kind of a misguided statement. Taxes are designed to fund those programs that we, as a society, have deemed to be for the public good. So to view paying them as a punishment is to view taxes as though you don't recieve anything for that payment. To put it in perspective, the better our education system is funded, the more well educated youth we produce. The more options those youth have. The less chance they will resort to crime. Hence, less chance kids will be stealing your Ferrari.

Finally, and probably most controversially, to say that the rich have worked hard and deserve what they have made, seems a bit presumptuous to me. This is always claimed as though everyone who is not rich is simply lazy or stupid. Unfortunately, the economy is based on the concept of limited resources. Not everyone can be rich, no matter how hard you work, or how determined you are. In order for there to be rich people, there has to be a sizable portion of the population that is poor. So, I have no doubt that most of those who are rich have indeed worked for it. However, there are many, many, more people who are not rich who also work very hard. Someone has to fix your Ferrari. Just something to think about.

-Steve

 

[BigJ]

Well said.

:golfclap:

 

[mwvnos]

ok....s i should pay a higher percentage tax than you? even if its the same percent, i still pay a whole lot more but then i look at it as fair...but to say that i should pay higher tax because i have more money is just ignorant.....give me some reasoning behind that statement...im not complaining on how it is now, im complaining on how the dems want to raise tax for the rich....there is a reason the dem candidates say that. -becasue there are more middle class that vote than high and they want to appeal to the largest group which is middle. oppurtunity has alot to do with wealthy people, but jimmy bumfuck from 3rd street and bill gates have the same chances to get rich...its the decisions you make along the way that pave the road for you....well i busted a politcal nut oll over this board today....damn this shit gets me goin...

 

[BigJ]

Uhh, jim bumfuck and billy gates don't have the same chances.

If you don't know, bill gates was a genius, jim was probably not, bill lived on lake washington and was handed everything. Jim wasn't. Bill got into college, dropped out and made microsoft, and made himself after he was given a good amount of stuff. Jim probably went to a 4 year school, and got stuck in a dead end job where there is no room for change, and decided to live the mediocre life, aka middle class where you can still own a house, and drive a nice car, and go on vacation, etc, but still have to go to work to pay the mortgage, etc.

There is a difference, because there aren't very many wealthy people in that 1% that were delt the same card as the person on welfare.

 

[mwvnos]

hey hotshot....im not only taling about bill gates, im talkin about the average 1%...my dad came from a middle class family, he started his biz and make it a mulitnational biz by himself....didnt get handed anything really...and yea i know not everyone is delt the same card but you can make your own oppurtunities if you have the desire to....i dont feel sorry at all for the welfare....in some extreme cases maybe they couldnt do anything about it but on average, they can....and thats their problem not mine....quit bitchin and do something about it if you dont like it!

 

[BigJ]

Dude, my point is being proven with your statement.

I'm more talking about, the only way things are going to get done, aka school/reform etc, are from the democrat's point of view. And you also have to think, that not everyone wants to live the highlife but is content with being middle class all their life, because really that's the truth and most people see this. I, myself won't settle for less, but that's because that's how I am.

And PS. I'm not the one bitching mang......

 

[mwvnos]

damn right im bitching about you dems wanting to raise taxes....thats fuckin stupid.....why why why? theres no logical reason for that...end of discusion, you cant prove why thats a good thing....you want taxes raised? why dont you pay more because you like them so much?

 

[BigJ]

What a rebuttle?

The rich would be taxed for one reason, they're rich. They have more, they can give more. The poor, yeah they can't give shit as it is, and me, I'm dirt poor. My mom makes 762 bucks a month on child support because she has a geneticoc dosability and is going to school full time and I work 28's and still don't have a dime left over from a pay check 1 week in and I don't buy shit. I'm still in highschool, my brother moved out a year ago, my dad doesn't support me besides giving me gas money and the occasional shirt and loaning me money when my car broke.Tax that! It isn't going to happen because there isn't anything to tax. Now the rich, yeah you can tax them all day long, because they can afford it.

The biggest reason for needed more taxes, is to get out of debt from the awesome handlings of the funds. Now explain that to me?

 

[90 accord]

the ultimate anti-bush !!!

 

[BigJ]

:bo: That's grand.

 

[mwvnos]

so riase them because they can pay them.....thats ignorants on your part....

 

[penguinzx]

I'm not really advocating the raising or lowering of taxes. I'm just trying to explain the logic behind having a tax bracket system. Try looking at it like this. The rich are not being taxed higher because they are rich, the poor are being taxed at a lower rate because they are poor. Despite the fact that the rich feel slighted, this really is how the tax system is supposed to work. The logic is more that if everyone could pay 39% they would. However the government recognizes that those with lower incomes simply can't afford that rate, so they reduce the percentage that the poor must pay. In reality it just simplifies the system. If the poor paid more, they would require more social assistance.

As to raising taxes, I guess the issue really is, what do we value? Are our current economic, infrastructure, education, healthcare, security, and defense systems adequate? If they are, then no, taxes don't need to be raised.

To press the issue though, I ask do we value post-secondary education? If major companies are going to continue to require a bachelor's degree to even apply for an entry level job, then maybe that's something taxes should be funding. If the the employers of this country are going to make such education mandatory, then that should be reflected in our tax system. If you want to discuss what is fair, then forcing people to encur $40K+ of debt before they even get a job does not sound very fair to me.

-Steve

 

[BigJ]

Damn this guy is my new best friend.

Thank you for coming up with some valid points.

 

[E_SolSi]

too many people look to the government for things that the government SHOULD NOT have anything to do with


schooling for instance... private schools have proven themselves to be FAR better for quite some time now... why??? profit margins... they have to be better if they want to make any money... otherwise people wouldnt spend their money to send their kids to them... privatize the school system and you will see our education level skyrocket... companies require secondary education because they know that the first 12 years in public schools are a fucking joke and no one learns shit


the private sector works... people need to trust it more and stop looking for handouts

 

[Sabz5150]

Originally posted by mwvnos@Jan 28 2004, 11:40 PM
damn right im bitching about you dems wanting to raise taxes....thats fuckin stupid.....why why why? theres no logical reason for that...end of discusion, you cant prove why thats a good thing....you want taxes raised? why dont you pay more because you like them so much?

Sure there is. How do things get paid for?

How do roads get kept up?
How do education programs get funded?
How do space missions get funded?
How do criminals get a nice cozy jail cell to rot in?
HOW DO WARS GET PAID FOR?

Simple. Taxes. That's where the government gets it's cash... from the people. We pay taxes to keep the government running just like we pay rent to keep our apartment.

No pay rent, no live in home. No pay taxes, government no worky. Simple? Simple.

You simply cannot spend your ass off and not have a revenue stream to back it up. Bush is doing EXACTLY what a lot of young, irresponsible people do with their credit cards... spend spend spend spend spend and hope the money's there when the time comes to pay the bill. What happens? Debt, and lots of it.

Where are we? In debt. Lots of it.

Case in point: In Virginia, the personal property tax was (almost) eliminated by Gov. Gilmore a couple of years back. Everyone was so happy that they didn't have to pay 200 dollars a year to drive their oversized H2's around. I didn't have to pay taxes on my old Honda anymore. Yay! But when the budgets came up, the state was waaaaay low on cash and had to make massive cutbacks.

I, at the time, was a state employee. One of those cutbacks happened to be my job.

Taxes have a reason, folks.

 

[Sabz5150]

Originally posted by E_SolSi@Jan 29 2004, 01:03 AM
the private sector works... people need to trust it more and stop looking for handouts

That's what the Soviet Union said when they privatized almost every aspect of their government.

Funny, the USSR doesn't exist anymore...

 

[E_SolSi]

How do roads get kept up?

thats state and local taxes not federal

How do education programs get funded?

not the governments job... they should stay the hell out of it

How do space missions get funded?

that shit is way the fuck out of control and needs to be cut way the fuck back

How do criminals get a nice cozy jail cell to rot in?

do criminals really need to have better living conditions than me??? i think not ... fuck the fuckin fuckers ... cut that shit way the fuck back too... prison should be punisment

HOW DO WARS GET PAID FOR?

finally something that IS the federal governments job... i would like to see more spent on bulking up the military, as well as better pay for those in the military


But when the budgets came up, the state was waaaaay low on cash and had to make massive cutbacks.

cutbacks are just what the govenment needs.... again im all for it

That's what the Soviet Union said when they privatized almost every aspect of their government.

Funny, the USSR doesn't exist anymore...

ummm actually the socialist (comunist) govenment that they had FEDERALIZED everything.... everythign was provided by the govenment ... there was no free market... that is why comunism fails

 

[Sabz5150]

Originally posted by E_SolSi@Jan 29 2004, 02:03 AM
How do roads get kept up?

thats state and local taxes not federal

How do education programs get funded?

not the governments job... they should stay the hell out of it

How do space missions get funded?

that shit is way the fuck out of control and needs to be cut way the fuck back

How do criminals get a nice cozy jail cell to rot in?

do criminals really need to have better living conditions than me??? i think not ... fuck the fuckin fuckers ... cut that shit way the fuck back too... prison should be punisment

HOW DO WARS GET PAID FOR?

finally something that IS the federal governments job... i would like to see more spent on bulking up the military, as well as better pay for those in the military


But when the budgets came up, the state was waaaaay low on cash and had to make massive cutbacks.

cutbacks are just what the govenment needs.... again im all for it

That's what the Soviet Union said when they privatized almost every aspect of their government.

Funny, the USSR doesn't exist anymore...

ummm actually the socialist (comunist) govenment that they had FEDERALIZED everything.... everythign was provided by the govenment ... there was no free market... that is why comunism fails

(education)not the governments job... they should stay the hell out of it

We have a public school system for a reason. To ensure that everyone has a chance to get an education. We aren't all rich fucks that can pay our way through school.

do criminals really need to have better living conditions than me??? i think not ... fuck the fuckin fuckers ... cut that shit way the fuck back too... prison should be punisment

Gotta pay for that prison somehow.

finally something that IS the federal governments job... i would like to see more spent on bulking up the military, as well as better pay for those in the military

cutbacks are just what the govenment needs.... again im all for it


HOLY FUCK! Did the left and right side of your brain contact and explode yet? First, you want to bulk up government spending on the military, then two seconds later want government cutbacks?! THAT. DOESN'T. WORK.

Besides, we have the single most powerful military on this planet. WHY THE FUCK DOES IT NEED BEEFING UP!? Were you once employed by the USSR perchance?

(space) that shit is way the fuck out of control and needs to be cut way the fuck back

They barely have enough money to keep themselves afloat, much less go to the moon or Mars. What are they gonna do? Ask the Smithsonian for their stuff back!?


ummm actually the socialist (comunist) govenment that they had FEDERALIZED everything.... everythign was provided by the govenment ... there was no free market... that is why comunism fails

We had a massive arms race with them that basically made them dump all their cash into defense to the point that they couldn't afford to keep their government running. They were damn near FORCED to privatize everything.

 

[bcman]

too many people look to the government for things that the government SHOULD NOT have anything to do with

Yes, the goverment should not have anything to do with such things, unless they include gay marriage, a woman's right to choose, wiretapping every arab-american, and censoring radio and television. Yay bigotry!

How do roads get kept up?

thats state and local taxes not federal

the states get lots of money for roads. That's why the national speed limit was 55 in most states for so long - they didn't get any money unless they kept it under 60.
who do you suppose funds interstates?

HOW DO WARS GET PAID FOR?

finally something that IS the federal governments job... i would like to see more spent on bulking up the military, as well as better pay for those in the military

Absolutely....wait, didn't Bush just propose a major cutback in pay for our soldiers, along with an abolishment of their health plan?

 

[E_SolSi]

We have a public school system for a reason. To ensure that everyone has a chance to get an education. We aren't all rich fucks that can pay our way through school.

if we werent paying taxes that pay for that bullshit 12 year daycare system, we would all have more money for private schooling... not to mention if there was more private schools then there would be competition over price and performance and people would get a lot more for their money as far as education goes... its just like cell phones... a few years ago when there was only a few companies out, the prices were high and you didnt get much in the way of benifits... now that there are assloads of companies out they compete with eachother to offer the most features for the lowest price... win/win situation... the same would be true of the educational system

Gotta pay for that prison somehow.

absolutly... and i have no problem paying to keep criminals in prison... but do they really need to stay in the luxury that they stay in now?? hell no... TVs, radios, weight rooms, game rooms, climate controled environment,etc etc... is this prison or a fucking club med vacation??? how bout a little less comfort and a little more rehabilitation so when they come out they might actually have something to offer society

HOLY FUCK! Did the left and right side of your brain contact and explode yet? First, you want to bulk up government spending on the military, then two seconds later want government cutbacks?! THAT. DOESN'T. WORK.

Besides, we have the single most powerful military on this planet. WHY THE FUCK DOES IT NEED BEEFING UP!? Were you once employed by the USSR perchance?

what is so hard to understand here???
cutbacks = get rid of the shit that doesnt fucking matter... like welfare, like 80% of the space program, like public education, like free prescription drug shit, like free health care, like amlost all of the shit that the government hands out to people so they dont have to provide for themselves

military = nessecary... it doesnt matter that we have the most powerful military "today"... there are plenty of countries/groups that would love to take a shot at us... the only thing that keeps them from fucking with us is the fear of what we are capable of doing in return (you will always have the random psycho fuck out there so dont bother bringing up 9/11... but if you havent noticed ... now that we have a president that does a little more than lob a few cruise missiles at a fuckin tent somewhere in the middle of the desert, we havent gotten attacked since)... for now this is fine... but the world is constantly evolving... if we just sit back and say "cool we are the biggest military power in the world, no one can ever fuck with us" and stop developing our military we will end up just like the iraqi military... at the time of the first gulf war it was the 3rd largest military in the world i believe... but their technology was from the fuckin 60s... we walked all over them in what 4 weeks?? so it is VERY important to always be developing and updating our military... and as far as the pay in the military goes... right now it sucks... this is a major reason why recruitment figures are down... pay them better and there will be more voluntary soldiers...

They barely have enough money to keep themselves afloat, much less go to the moon or Mars. What are they gonna do? Ask the Smithsonian for their stuff back!?

fuck the moon... fuck mars... there is no reason to go there

We had a massive arms race with them that basically made them dump all their cash into defense to the point that they couldn't afford to keep their government running. They were damn near FORCED to privatize everything.

you dont understand what communism/socialism is do you??? they can not privatize shit... as soon as they start relying on the private sector and free market THEY ARE NO LONGER COMMUNISTS/SOCIALISTS... they would be capitalists