My newest build for SCCA STL/HPDE's

[vtecsir1]

Yeah the humidity is really what kills me and since I went to college and played baseball in Maryland I know its just as bad for gsrcrx.

cafrog thanks, road racing is amazing and there is nothing more enjoyable than a vette owner or porsche owner coming over in the pits and saying wtf?? How did you blow by me? It is all about the nut behind the wheel...Drag racing is exciting but it is over so quickly.

The spring rates between drag and road race are much different if you are serious on the drag strip. I know the rears are very stiff and I think the fronts are in the softer range but Im not sure what that range is. I would think something like 350/550 might work between the 2 but I really have no idea.

B16, have you attached the front sway bar yet? I think you would like a little bit more of a gap between front and rear rates if you go to the 1200s. Are you having any problems getting the rear to come around? (outside of cold tires lol)

 

[B16]

B16, have you attached the front sway bar yet? I think you would like a little bit more of a gap between front and rear rates if you go to the 1200s. Are you having any problems getting the rear to come around? (outside of cold tires lol)

I have not attached it yet. I feel the car is not as "loose" as I prefer.

 

[vtecsir1]

what rear bar setup are you running? thats something else Im going to look into once Im on the track again.

currently Im running a 23mm jdm rear bar with a beaks kit. I think I might want to change it to a 24mm asr setup at least.

A lot of my SCCA buddies run the asr 32mm hollow.

 

[UNDR8D]

Explain why you have 3800 lbs. of coil for a 2200 lb. car and what is your damper set up like to account for those coils? How big is your front sway?

 

[B16]

I'm also running a 23mm JDM bar. I have the ASR brace, I should look into their bar.

UNDR8D, these spring rates common for road race Honda's. I guess the reason why is building off over 10 years of other Honda racers experience.

 

[vtecsir1]

I used Hypercos spring calculator and it put me around 500lb springs (very cool excel spreadsheet to calculate it).

Well that just doesnt work.

As mentioned by B16, I didnt just pull these numbers out of my ass. Take a look at any of the winning Hondas in Honda Challenge/NASA or SCCA and they have rates like this. I have personally been in a civic si sprung higher than my rates that handled like no other car I have set foot in.

My setup is a 21mm Suspension Techniques front bar, JDM 23mm rear bar

The dampening is provided by Progress and was valved for these rates by Progress for me. These are not off the shelf coil overs and I would compare them almost to a Koni revalved unit. No adjustability but at this point Im not experienced enough to accurately dial in a double adjustable mega dollar coilover setup.

In the end you have to be comfortable with the car, at 500f/800r my car felt spectacular compared to 425f/500r. The problem was it just didnt transition and rotate as much as I want. The car was no where close to snap oversteer.

B16 is running similar rates and the same brand coils on his setup, it has a similar wheelbase but slightly shorter. He does pretty damn well in his class of Time Trial in NASA.

Certain tracks may be more kind to certain spring rates as well, Sebring might be too bumpy with these rates. Roebling which is probably where I will first try this setup out is a much smoother track which will probably be very good with this setup. I wont know until I test and tune which is why you test and tune

Theory is one thing but you cant argue with results.

 

[B16]

vtecsir1, when do you plan on getting back on track? Do you have any aero you'll be adding? I'm curious how you'll like those rates.

 

[vtecsir1]

Im trying to get back on track by Oct. for the Nasa event @ Sebring which I think I should make and then Nov. @ Roebling which will lead me into License school in Feb @ Roebling.

SCCA just released notes in the fast track about rear aero which I was waiting for, basically the $1k APR gt wing is allowed now so Im either going to just run a duckbill off ebay or fab something similar to the APR wing for a lot less money.

The front Im going to make a splitter out of aluminum or wood most likely.

The last thing Im waiting on is the roll cage, Im about $1k short so Im trying to gather those funds this month so I can drop it off with the cage builder.

My friend just built a del sol for ITB and was running ITA with the civic si I mentioned before as well as a F Prod civic. He also has won the SAARC etc etc so I dropped him a message to see what hes running on his del sol.

EDIT: He said hes running 700/900 no front bar and a 23mm rear and its too soft. He actually agreed with my current setup, I trust his opinion and will find out soon enough.

 

[CAFROG]

So no front sway and big rear sway leans things towards over-steer? I know guys do this for track use but I don't see why you would want the front to be sloppy.

 

[UNDR8D]

I used Hypercos spring calculator and it put me around 500lb springs (very cool excel spreadsheet to calculate it).

Well that just doesnt work.

As mentioned by B16, I didnt just pull these numbers out of my ass. Take a look at any of the winning Hondas in Honda Challenge/NASA or SCCA and they have rates like this. I have personally been in a civic si sprung higher than my rates that handled like no other car I have set foot in.

My setup is a 21mm Suspension Techniques front bar, JDM 23mm rear bar

The dampening is provided by Progress and was valved for these rates by Progress for me. These are not off the shelf coil overs and I would compare them almost to a Koni revalved unit. No adjustability but at this point Im not experienced enough to accurately dial in a double adjustable mega dollar coilover setup.

In the end you have to be comfortable with the car, at 500f/800r my car felt spectacular compared to 425f/500r. The problem was it just didnt transition and rotate as much as I want. The car was no where close to snap oversteer.

B16 is running similar rates and the same brand coils on his setup, it has a similar wheelbase but slightly shorter. He does pretty damn well in his class of Time Trial in NASA.

Certain tracks may be more kind to certain spring rates as well, Sebring might be too bumpy with these rates. Roebling which is probably where I will first try this setup out is a much smoother track which will probably be very good with this setup. I wont know until I test and tune which is why you test and tune

Theory is one thing but you cant argue with results.

Right on. I wasn't doubting their effectiveness, just trying to understand the need for such a heavy coil. You are right theory and application are often different and this is one of the points at which they diverge.

 

[vtecsir1]

I still have my front bar on but others do take them off....I just dont like the feel with the front off which is partly why Im having to compensate in the rear. I still will have oversteer which is preferred, I could always try disconnecting my front sway again once Im on slicks and the car is setup so I can see how it feels.

You are looking for quicker response and better turn ins which typically you would be fighting in a somewhat stock fwd car like a honda civic.

UNDR8D: No problem, everyone has opinions on this so there isnt one way to do things and we all are always learning. I cant argue with data that has been laid out for years though lol.

Im learning about the differences right now between slicks and sticky street tires in terms of camber setup.

Im going to be changing my camber to -2.5 frt and -1.5 rear from -3.8 frt -1.9 rear to accomodate my hoosiers.

 

[TurboMirage]

absolutely seems like a good setup. to be effective on the track unfortunately the same setup will destroy your body on the street.

i ran no front sway and a 23mm JDM ITR bar, with decent spring rates and i had alot of oversteer. even on hoosiers. i was only running -2 frt and -1 rear camber though.

 

[B16]

So no front sway and big rear sway leans things towards over-steer? I know guys do this for track use but I don't see why you would want the front to be sloppy.

You want as much front grip as possible, the front sway bar will actually try and raise the inner front tire when cornering. Having no front sway bar will allow your front end to be truly independent.

That is the theory.. And you make up for it with stiffer front rates.

I'm also running 10mm spacers up front.

 

[vtecsir1]

Word, I dont have pics but when I was at Sebring last time a photographer said I was two wheeling the hairpin..I wish he had of gotten me those photos. It looks cool but is not optimal.

I will experiment with it off, maybe with the higer front rates it wont feel so unstable like it did previoulsy when I didnt have one on.

 

[UNDR8D]

Ya spring rates and sways are the two generally accepted ways to provide roll stiffness. If you decrease the thickness of a sway or the length of the parallel arms, you will have to account for that with a stiffer spring.

On my '57 chassis, I placed the air bag in the center of the link bar, giving a soft spring rate at ride height (about 50% inflation), so to make up for that, I'm using a 24mm bar with 6" ends which will provide a high stiffness coefficient. Just an example..

 

[endlesszeal]

man love this stuff. wish i had the dedication and knowledge to do this.

side note: im located an 1hr away from thunderhill. that would be awesome if a few of us met out there for the lemons race.

 

[B16]

endlesszeal, c'mon out! I'll be there co-driving a BRE themed 240z labeled "ratsun" on the side.. We'll be there Fri - Sun

 

[eg6sir]

hope you guys make it to Buttonwillow.. i will definitely be there if you do..

 

[vtecsir1]

Hell yeah!

Oddly my wife called me today from work and said some co workers need a 4th driver for their lemons car at PBIR in Jan or Feb. and heard I could drive a little. Its funny how racers are everywhere lol.

That should be interesting in an old 3 series, rwd which I only have minimal exp with.

How have those races gone for you B16? They look pretty intense from what I have seen.

Endless: you can do it!

 

[B16]

vtecsir, do it! It is the best time I've ever had racing. The people that participate are really a great group of racers. It is taken only 1/2 seriously, but is truly an endurance race.

What we found is to just drive about 7/10's the first day just collecting laps. 1/3 of the field is gone by the 2nd day and the traffic really thins out allowing you to push it more. Try to stay out an entire tank of fuel (should be 2-2.5 hrs). I'm not sure if you've ever been in a race car for that long at once, but it is EXTREMELY draining. You really don't notice until you're done and trying to get out of the car quickly so fueling can happen.

Practice your pits stops, you want them to last no more than 3 minutes. You cannot do anything else to the car while fueling is happening and no one can be in the car or touching it. Get friends to help in the pits. It takes usually 2 people to get someone in and out of the car quickly. Have another guy checking tire pressures, under hood, fluids, etc during the driver change.

Also make sure the team has some form of radio communication for the car (headset). It is vital to run the race from the pit (captain) and not the car. Also have spotters in different parts of the tracks or in the timing and scoring towers (it will be pretty packed with others doing the same) and help call flags, incidents, positions, etc.

It is possible to cheat and hide it, be creative and bring bribes for the judges.